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Macro vs Micro Universe and what are you doing about it?
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Dembowski



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 44
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe it is our society these days Bill.


You know what? You just may have hit the nail on the head. I’m a bit of a throwback. I consider myself to be an amateur naturalist; when was the last time you heard that one? A hundred years ago it was a noble pastime for a gentleman. Now, the closest thing to it is an elementary school science class. Something to be outgrown as we reach for something more relevant (I’m searching for the right word here, and I’m not sure if that is it or not.).

Perhaps the reason the organization doesn’t exist is because its time has passed. Sad
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Ken Ramos
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill wrote:

Quote:
Perhaps the reason the organization doesn’t exist is because its time has passed


That could be the case Bill but I hate to think so and your statement seems to be quite valid. However there are still a few that would enjoy such an organization I think but these types of things need to be promoted. One place to begin is in the home I think. Maybe if parents would put more of an emphasis on education and less on sitting down with the family and watching a DVD filled with violence and other things or vidio games, there might be more of an interest in the study of nature. Neutral

Of course there are DVD's that are produced by nature programers, National Geo, Discovery and Nature for example and these would or could spawn a young minds interest. As for the older individual, we seem to be preoccupied with our jobs and just providing for our families and these days that is becoming quite a burden and burdens dull the mind, leaving less time for other things. Sad

Has microscopys time passed? I really do not think so. It has never really been promoted as much as astronomy. Space exploration is a wonderful thing but as long as cars, trucks, planes, and trains still run on fossile fuels, we have no business trying to navigate a ship among the stars and what, I shudder to think, if we could go to another planet and colonize it? Look at what man has done to this world already; but that leads to another discussion entirely different from this one all together. Smile
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Dembowski



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
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Location: Pennsylvania, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Has microscopys time passed? I really do not think so.


Ken … I didn’t mean to imply that microscopy itself was outmoded. I was speaking in terms of a cooperative organization of microscopists. People these days don’t seem to have the same attraction to such things.

In addition to astronomy and nature study, I am also an avid photographer and longtime officer in a local “camera club”. In recent years there has been a pronounced swing from film to digital as the medium of choice. More people than ever are taking pictures, yet there has also been a significant drop in our membership rolls. A lot of folks seem to prefer a solitary existence with their hobby or find the Internet more to their liking. Just signs of the times I guess.
(The less human contact the better?)
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Ken Ramos
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh o.k. now I see what you are saying. Yes indeed if there were a club or an organization of microscopists in my area, I would definitely join. Surprised Now I see. There are some organizations like that, which have websites offering information and other tid bits for those who may be interested. I have ran across astronomy sites too along that line. They are not on-line groups but just have an informative site to let folks know they are around.

Alas, I wish there were one in my area. Not looking for sympathy but I have no friends, however if someone were to scratch behind my ear once in while it would be nice. There is just not anyone around who shares my interests in these things. I once showed my sister some of the photographs I had taken. She gave me a look like I had showed her something from one of "THOSE" magazines. Embarassed Yes, now I understand what you are saying but much of what I have previously referenced probably denotes the reasons as to why there are not any active groups like I would hope for around here. Sad You know this is quite strange and funny too but I once applied for a job and during my interview the employer asked, "what hobbies do you have?" Well I told him, flyfishing and microbiology. "Microbiology!" he shouted, I mean literally shouted. He was genuinely stunned. I did not get the job! Laughing
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gpmatthews



Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion - I am a member of the Quekett Microscopical Club. I have known of it for many a year, but only got around to joining last year. It meets at the Natural History Museum in London, and when I attended my first meeting I was stopped by a security man at the museum entrance. I told him I was going to a Quekett Club meeting and he answered: "I don't believe you - you're much too young!" - like many words in jest, there was an element of truth, and I also notice my local amateur radio club has fewer young members. Maybe this means that technical hobbies are in decline, but I suspect it may just be that people go about their interests in different ways these days - this forum is a shining example of what is effectively an on-line club (I hate to ask our average age...).

If you're worried about doing science, or more specialised areas of study, it probably only requires one or two members here to issue a challenge along the lines of "let's photograph the life cycle of X" or "can we compare different types of pollen and how to observe them" or indeed anything where members can be inspired to contribute to a theme (for "theme", maybe read "project"). This has already happened here with techniques such as flash photomicrography and image stacking, so why not other areas of interest.

On a related point - I was recently contacted by a South African post grad student wanting details on photographing starch grains using polarised light in order to compare and identify traces of crops found on iron age grinding stones, particularly maize and sorghum. Has anyone got any knowledge of the comparison of maize starch and sorghum starch? I suspect they will be very similar. As some of you will know, I posted a selection of different starches on my website some time back. Has anyone got an authentic sample of ground sorghum?

...and a final thought: the structure of this forum does not encourage posting lots of pictures on a topic in a thread, and this may inhibit adding images to a theme and thereby building up an on-line "project file". - any suggestions?
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Ken Ramos
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The observations made about your own two clubs are quite interesting Graham. Maybe you are right about the technicality of both, I seem to suspect so too. As I stated earlier, maybe its our society these days. It seems no one wants to work towards something anymore, note that I underlined the four letter word "work." Confused I sometimes think that our modern technology has also brought along with it stupidity and the dulling of ones mind for our younger generation. If you cannot get it at the click of a mouse or a jerk on the "joy stick" it is not worth the bother anymore.

You have brought about an interesting observation on this site, for example the posting of multiple images in a single thread. I have noticed that there are a few, not many that have continuing images of a particular subject. I think primarily what we are concerned with here is detracting from anothers posted work to draw attention to our own in that persons same thread, unless it is requested of course. If this were allowed the size of one single thread could be quite large and have an extensive amount of pages not to mention, maybe the originators disgust at having his post ravaged by other membes. As to how that would affect the operational capabilities of the site I do not know, our senior administrators would have to address or answer that. Wink

You made the statement:

Quote:
this forum is a shining example of what is effectively an on-line club


I never thought of it that away but you are right Graham, we are and a very effective on-line club when it comes to photography, whether through the microscope or with a macro lens but note I said photography and not scientific study. There are some posts in which our members do provide a good deal of interesting and thought provoking information on their particular subjects however and I do find that to be very interesting since I myself lean towards the scientific applications of such posts.

I personally would think that an on-line group involving microscopy techniques and subject research/projects would be great and when it comes to subject research our macro counterparts could be able to contribute as well. Low power stereomicroscopes are used extensively in some studies and a macro lens is just as effective. Also from the images presented on this site, they seem to be much better than a stereomicroscope. Wink

So with all the above being said, could our site here straddle the fence and delve into the scientific applications of our members work? Would a subject Research Forum be extensively utilized by our members or draw other individuals to our site? Not many other sites that I am a member of have an image uploader as efficent as ours, nor does any other site have such a professional, well behaved and amiable group of members willing to contribute thoughts, ideas, and suggestions. Professionalism I find to be the greatest asset this site has, as pertaining to our members Very Happy So again could we straddle the fence as I stated above. I think it is worth a try. As they say, "nothing ventured, nothing gained." If its popularity increased maybe it could break off into a site of its own with great sucess. Who knows? Very Happy
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Red Seven



Joined: 17 Mar 2006
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Location: Victoria, B.C. Canada

PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, since I started this thread I guess I shouldn't just lurk but rather attempt to make some contribution....
The first thing I would say is thanks for creating this forum and providing access to the combined experience of all the senior members.
That said here are my views on the current state of these forums and some musings on what it could become....
First off I found this forum on a search for microscopy forums. When I navigated to the site I eventually noticed that I had been shunted to a Photography site that was somehow interconnected with microscopy. The empahisis seemed to be mainly on photomicroscopy. The first thing I noticed about this forum is the limited number of topic areas. For example....
There is no "Beginners/Newbies" Forum. One of the things people are noting about the seeming reduced interest in Microscopy is the lack of new and younger members. Maybe lets start by making these forums Newbie friendly. Add a beginners forum and make sure to respond to all new posts. I have attended the forums at Yahoos Microscopy Group and it is fairly active and often with beginners looking for help to get started. Lets face it, this hobby can be easy but can get very complex very quickly requiring Newbies to seek assistance. Also note that most newbies haven';t yet advance to photomicroscopy. That is a later level of skill and they will need to work their way up to that. I would love to and look forward to a time when I can partake in capturing images of the wonderous things I'm seeing but first I have a lot to learn.
Secondly under the topic for the more advanced such as combined research towards a common goal. I believe that if you had a projects forum you have enough advanced members that you could begin a project of significance and fantastic interest by inviting suggestions and identifying a common project in which advance members could participate and from which the rest of us could learn. I wouldn't be suprised if there were researchers out there who would draw on your volunteer expertise by offering project ideas related to their work if they are made aware of your existance and interest.
There are many other forums that would be useful such as "Equipment for Sale or Donation", "Links", etc
There is much more I could suggest but I better shut up for now until it is decided as to whether I am full of good ideas or just "full of it"...the jury is still out on that one!
Thanks Folks
Archie
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Ken Ramos
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You too have made some valid points there Archie. Every so often we do have beginners looking for advice. Maybe a Beginners Forum might be a good idea but that too will have to be decided by our senior administration staff. Smile

When I first came to these forums I was expecting something more along the scientific line of microscopic research but like you I found it more to be photography, of which I am not disappointed in. Very Happy However I knew nothing of taking photographs through the microscope only in just holding a camera to the eyepiece, which I still do but in a more practical way. It is due to the help and expertise of the members of these forums that I have improved somewhat on my abilities to photograph through the microscope and if I had the assests ($) I could follow in a few members footsteps. Very Happy Not only can microscopy go from being simple but very expensive and technical too. Rolling Eyes

You have some good ideas Archie and have made some good observations too about this site. I think starting this thread has been a refreshing post and may open our eyes to some new ideas to improve upon this site or maybe even begin another like it related more to the scientific contributions or applications of the subjects presented but as I said our senior administration staff would have to make those decisions. I myself am quite pleased with the interest that this post has generated, good work. Very Happy
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thomasr



Joined: 02 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coming from Astronomy, I only recently regained some interest for microscopy. I joined the astronomy group of the local natural sciences association 25 years ago. At the same time there was a hydrobiology and limnology group and I visited them once when we took samples from a river. If they would have showed me more about the microscopes rather than just doing the field trip, I would possibly have continued with them. Ok, my mistake not asking for guidance on the microscopes, but it was a hydrobiology group, not microscopy. While we have a large group telescope, there wasn't a large group microscope. However, now the hydrobiology group doesn't exist anymore because some former members died and most moved elsewhere. The astronomy group is still active and attracts young amateur astronomers.

At school there would have been a chance to introduce us to microscopy in the biology lessons, but that wasn't used. But then, we weren't taught much on practical astronomy either.

My persistent interest in astronomy was triggered by a book, and all libraries and book shops here had excellent books on astronomy on all levels from popular picture books to research publications.

After I joined the astronomy group at age 16, I was lucky that I could convince my parents to buy me a small reflector telescope as a xmas present. I had bought already a computer from my pocket money savings and from money that I earned from walking the neighbour's dog. In retrospective I can say that I used my electronics kits, the chemestry kits, the computer and the telescope well. The only item I didn't use well was a microscope which I got at maybe age 13. The reason was that all other kits came with excellent manuals and there were plenty of books and magazines available in the libraries and bookshops. Not so for the microscope. The microscope itself wasn't too bad, a toy, but I would say usable. However, the manual provided no guidance on what to do with it rather than looking at the prepared slides. Would there have been instructions or library books available on how to get protozoae and even more important how to identify them, I probably would have continued. So all I did was looking at the ready made slides and a few other things for a day or two and that was it.

Now the internet makes things much easier, but there is still not a comprehensive source of information available on how to identify all the protozoa. And we need more affordable picture books that can compete with Hubble astronomy picture books. While there are hundreds on TV programmes on animals, I can't recall any on microganisms and microscopy except in the context of medicine. Microscopy won't be popular before BBC or Discovery Channel etc make it popular and before there are dozens of affordable picture books to buy.

Thomas
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Meadster



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having just stumbled across this topic, I thought I might add my two cents worth. I am a Middle school biology teacher/ vice principal at a school for gifted & talented boys here in Dallas. Since I was a kid (I am 39 now) I have loved to see what worlds are revealed under the microscope. However, in the “modern” world the time needed to teach microscopy and the biology that should accompany it is in very short supply. As public school are pushed more & more into standards based assessment, there will be less & less class time available for anything related to natural history as opposed to biotech topics. In addition, the cost of decent scopes for a classroom of 30 kids gets pricey in areas where money is very tight. As such, fewer & fewer kids in the US are being exposed to more than the knowledge that the microscope is a tool that scientists use. If you were to attend this years National Science Teacher’s Association (NSTA) Convention in Anaheim, CA you’d find NOT ONE workshop given over to microscope skills. As a teacher who greatly values what microscopes offer, I am deeply concerned.


Over the past 5 years, I have (with limited resources) done some basic photo & video microscopy with inexpensive digital scopes and most recently with a Moticam 2000, my school acquired. My students ADORE the images and videos I capture. With just one scope/cam, I can enthrall an entire class of 6th grade boys for an hour with video tales of Stentor & Blepharisma feeding upon euglena. They were also amazed to watch Paramecium feast on carmine powder before their eyes. Never mind the excitement when I accidentally crushed a Chaos under a cover slip! Talk about a discussion of where life starts & stops! The spark I got from this led me to suggest (and later start) an addition to our school’s summer science camp program called “Microscope Mania”. It had its trial run last year & 20 elementary/middle school kids spent 15 hours with me (3 hours/day for a week) learning basic microscopy & how to use the Moticam 2000’s we acquired. I taught them how to capture video & edit it using Windows MovieMaker software. At the end of the week, I compiled everyone’s highlights onto a DVD for them to take home to show for Mom & Dad. I also set up a rudimentary web site that highlights some of our videos in streaming format.
http://www.smtexas.net/faculty/mead/index02.htm

Much to my delight, the camp idea was picked up again for summer 2006 for six sessions! I already have several “veteran” kids planning to return so they can expand upon their adventures! Prior to starting camp in early July, I was invited to present about my work with digital microscopy at the International Boy’s Schools Coalition conference in Johannesburg, South Africa this June! I plan to use the opportunity to show school administrators the educational value of digital microscopy as well as the economic benefit of adding a digital component when a full micro lab is not economically feasible.

My next project will be to build on my relationship with some of the science supply houses and look to have them support presentations at local, regional, and national teacher conferences. Having “preached” about this in a rather unofficial manner, I know that teachers get excited when they see the possibilities this presents. This is ESPECIALLY true when we talk about middle school kids.

As I conclude this lengthy “rant”, I know that a well produced multimedia CD or DVD could have a positive effect here. Given the prodigious talents I see regularly on this site, I wonder if some sort of collaboration along these lines might serve to open the eyes of the uninitiated…….Just a thought! Thanks for listening & I look forward to hearing what others think.
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MikeBinOKlahoma



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Macro photography is expensive enough and energy-intensive enough for me that I carefully avoid getting interested in microscopy also! I'm very interested in the biology of most of the things I photograph, though. I certainly don't have any objection to forming a more explicit microscopy forum group here, I suspect it would be useful for those who do that.

As for multiple shots exploring the natural history of a subject, the naturescapes.net "photo essays" forum is probably a good example of what would be needed. They allow one post per week, a maximum of six shots, and up to 500 words (and I understand words are a requirement, though I don't recall them enforcing it).
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MikeBinOKlahoma



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red Seven wrote:
The first thing I noticed about this forum is the limited number of topic areas. For example....
There is no "Beginners/Newbies" Forum.


Multiple forums sound nice, but they haven't worked well here in the past (my view only, of course). For a forum to work well, there needs to be a critical mass of people reading and posting. This is not a huge group anyway, and more forums dilite that critical mass down further. There have been a number of forums established here that ended up being (understandably) deleted by the site owner due to lack of participation.

I'm not that big on a "newbies forum", though changing the name of one of our forums like "technical issues/how-to questions" or something similar might encourage participation by those who haven't gotten a swelled head yet from their view of their own expertise! Laughing
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MikeBinOKlahoma



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thomasr wrote:

After I joined the astronomy group at age 16, I was lucky that I could convince my parents to buy me a small reflector telescope as a xmas present. I had bought already a computer from my pocket money savings and from money that I earned from walking the neighbour's dog. In retrospective I can say that I used my electronics kits, the chemestry kits, the computer and the telescope well. The only item I didn't use well was a microscope which I got at maybe age 13. The reason was that all other kits came with excellent manuals and there were plenty of books and magazines available in the libraries and bookshops. Not so for the microscope. The microscope itself wasn't too bad, a toy, but I would say usable. However, the manual provided no guidance on what to do with it rather than looking at the prepared slides. Would there have been instructions or library books available on how to get protozoae and even more important how to identify them, I probably would have continued. So all I did was looking at the ready made slides and a few other things for a day or two and that was it.


I had a small, cheap, but useable microscope by a company called "Perfect" as a 12-year old (about 1970) and spent hours messing about with what I found in pond water, etc. I was able to find enough books to keep me reasonably well-instructed. I also was an AVID amateur astronomer, much-more so than the microscopy. Haven't done much with either in decades, though!

A few years ago, Intel came out with a small "video" microscope called the QX3 that I bought one of when it was being discontinued. It works well enough for what it is,a nd hooks up to a computer so you can view through the monitor, and take small (600x480 I believe) digital photos of what you see. I still see them offered on the web at discount prices occasionally. Would make a good gift for ayoungster who was into this stuff, or might get into it.
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MikeBinOKlahoma



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ken Ramos wrote:
You know Bill you have brought up a question that I often asked myself, why are there not groups of individuals who share a common interest microscopy being formed?

....stuff edited out....

Many years ago, I had a deep love for astronomy and I have owned several telescopes in the past. At that time however, groups of amateurs to associate with were scarce at best and I still have sort of a quiet love for astronomy Very Happy


I think a big part of why amateur microscopy and telescopy doesn't take off is the availability of awesome imagery on the various nature/science channels of cable/satellite tv, and over the internet. What you can do on your own without considerable expertise and expense looks so pathetic compared to the pro stuff you see there, that I think most people aren't motivated.

For astronomy, the rise of urbanism and light pollution undoubtedly has played a part. Light pollution was a problem for me on the outskirts of a medium-sized city thirty years ago, and it is a lot worse now (and an ever-growing percentage of the population lives in cities where this is a hindrance).
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of you are correct in your statements and some very good comments and personal views have been expressed. Multiple forums as Mike mentioned, have not been very popular among our present members and that is o.k. Our members are of the utmost concern but I personally would like to have or to find a site or forum that deals not only with the photographs taken but in the scientific value of such photographs, as to what they show and could possibly reveal to the scientific and educational communities, along with discussions about the subjects morphology and physiology, ecological importance, etc... Think

We are a very diverse group of individuals here. We live in all parts of the world and the U.S. Our observations and experiences could be of some importance to both the scientific and educational community, as someone noted I believe. If we were to become more visible maybe someone might just take notice of this site or another like it and put our talents to use. Very Happy Then again could I just be wishing on a star? Sad .... Laughing
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